Tuesday, November 18, 2008
Self reflect
Please watch this video. I saw it on my friends blog. And then I'd like you to answer this question. I'm going to put it on a poll on the side of my blog. Because I know a lot of my readers are either Mormon or voted for Prop 8. And I know you will be more inclined to answer my question if it's annonymous.
Would you vote in favor of gay marriage if prop 8, or another proposition, was worded in a way that made it impossible to talk about marriage- either gay or straight- in schools, and made it impossible to inforce it on religious leaders and churches, meaning they would not be thrown in jail or loose their tax exempt status? Would you vote for gay marriage then? If you feel so inclined, you can comment why or why not.
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15 comments:
Glad to hear you guys had a good time in AZ, bummer we didn't get to meet up.
You know how I feel about this issue already. That video makes me misty eyed cuz it articulates exactly how I feel.
I'm really interested to see the responses to this question. I'm so confused right now bc of the different messages I'm getting - Love one another right? That is, unless that person is gay...
I don't need to be annonymous. Here's what I think. God gave us the power to procreate, and laws to govern the use of that power. He said it is only to be used between a man and a woman who are married. That makes marriage sacred. That makes marriage between a man and a woman sacred. Sex is not a toy to be played with wiily-nilly, regardless of how we feel. The same goes for marriage. I don't see how a member of the LDS church, or any christian church for that matter can see gay marriage as acceptable. To me, it really comes down to this: If you believe in God, this is a matter of morality. If not, this is a civil rights issue. This has nothing to do with the right or ability to "love one another". There is nothing written in prop 8 about love. My support of prop 8 does not mean I love my gay neighbor any less. (that sounds funny)
I've been hearing that a lot - supporting prop 8 doesn't mean you love your gay neighbor any less. I would disagree and contend that anyone who says this doesn't actually know any gay people personally. I don't think you can love someone on the one hand while at the same time actively trying to oppress them.
I also don't think it's a matter of believing in God or morality. All these people want are the same legal/secular rights as any other citizen. Religion has nothing to do with it.
Perhaps if gays wanted to be married in the temple I'd agree with you. But then that is a religious issue and religious beliefs would come into play. But that is not what is at issue.
Not all people against the anti-gay legislation view gay marriage as acceptable. People can think what they want about whether gay marriage is acceptable or not - it's irrelevant. Again, the issue is legal/secular rights.
Whatever your beliefs may be does not give you the right to force your moral code or religious beliefs on others.
Janee, we're not forcing our religious beliefs on anyone. I don't want to be forced to accept something that I see as perverted, which homosexuality is. I don't want my grandchildren to hear in school that gay marriage is the same as normal marriage. I use the word normal because homosexuality is abnormal. Like my son said, God created marriage to be between a man and a woman. The majority of voters in CA agreed with that. And now we have gay terrorists sending suspicious substances to our temples. That video is another example of how Lucifer makes the wrong things seem right and the right things seem wrong. He is the master of all lies and this is one of the biggest. I personally know gay people and I love them, but not the perverted things they do. That's what Christ said to do- Hate the sin, but love the sinner. And if gay people are allowed to marry, why not allow polygamy? Why not let people marry their dogs, their cars, children, their siblings or any other sick obsession? And lastly, their desire to marry should not trump religious freedom which is what will happen if this perversion is allowed.
Wow, I'm pretty speechless. Those are probably the most hateful and narrow-minded (and stupid) things I've ever heard.
Amberly and John, we all have had discourse on here explaining why all those arguments are not viable and I'm not going to waste my time. I'm just so disgusted I can't even respond to the above post.
Mom-
You ARE enforcing your religious beliefs by voting the way you did on gay marriage. "God created marriage to be between a man and a woman". That is a religious belief. You are voting according to your religion. Monson TOLD you to vote that way. How is that not voting based on your religious beliefs?
YOUR grandchildren, are MY children. And I don't want MY children to go to school and learn that marriage can only be between a man and woman.
The video is a clear explaination on how wrong this all is. It's funny that you say it's Lucifer's way of making the wrong thing seem right, when in actuallity, the yes on 8 commercials that were funded 80% by mormons were full of lies.
Comparing gay marriage to marrying cars and dogs is really ignorant sounding Mom. I would try to stear clear of that in the future. If anything, Mormons should be the last ones to bring up polygamy. Think back to a time when your prophet practiced a form of marriage that was shunned upon by the majority of this country. To even compare the issue is completely hypocritical.
And lastely, allowing gay marriage cannot and will not trump religious freedom. The first ammendment says so. To this day, I have not heard of ONE church to loose it's tax exempt status, EXCEPT that church that totally bashed Kerry in it's service.
See what I have to put up with Janee?
Prop 8 is about morality to SOME people, but the way it plays out in terms of its effects on society is through our legal system. as marriage is a civil rights issue, this makes the whole prop 8 situation a civil rights issue by default and a moral issue if that is something that you are hung up on.
Also, I want to add that I see Proposition 8 to be discriminatory against gay people and contrary to the belief in equal rights for all for the following reason-- You cannot tell someone is gay by looking at him or her. If you are racist or sexist, all you have to do to identify and target the population you want to discriminate against is to look at another person and discriminate based on what you see, whether it is skin color, eye shape, gender, hair texture, etc. However, in order to discriminate against a gay person, you have to attack what it is that defines a person as gay--who he/she chooses to build a relationship with. So, by targeting marriage and writing marriage inequality into the constitution, you thereby discriminate against a group of people based on who they are.
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first off, we all have a right to vote. nobody is forcing their religious beliefs on anyone by voting. Even if I was not a mormon, and had no religious belief, I would vote to prohibit gay marriage.
Polygamy was "shunned" by society but not against the law. when it became against the law, mormons stopped.
Janee, I don't know your religion, but if you are mormon and you are choosing to follow some reporter on youtube and society instead of a prophet of god, you really need to re-evaluate what your religion should be. Monson is entitled to make mistakes, In his personal life, not when leading the church.
God will not allow that to happen. Your not sustaining the prophet, don't you see that?
Voting is a right. I could say that by voting for gay marriage, gay people are forcing their beliefs on me. It goes both ways. If the majority of one of the most liberal states votes not to allow it, AMERICA doesn't want it! And to sit here and bad-mouth people for voting for prop 8 is like bawling because you didn't get your way, like a spoiled little kid. The people have spoken! Get over it.
Oh god...
Everyone I have communicated with regarding this issue has founded their stance on gay marriage based on this statement "God said marriage is between a man and woman". THAT is a religious belief. People who vote against gay marriage that way are enforcing a religious belief on others.
I do agree with you that Janee should re-evaluate what her religion should be ;-), and she probably isn't sustaining the prophet.
Voting for gay marriage IS voting according to a BELIEF, but not a RELIGIOUS belief. And it's not forcing a belief on you, because they aren't forcing you to marry a gay person. By voting against gay marriage, you're telling gay people to marry a person of the opposite sex, or not marry at all. THAT IS ENFORCING A [religious] BELIEF ON THEM. Gay people are not taking away any of your rights. I can't believe you can't see that.
This is NOT like acting like a spoiled kid. This is clearly a violation of civil rights. The only reason prop 8 passed was because Mormons financially supported and enabled ads and campaigns which told lies about religious freedom. People were scared into believing that if gay marriage passed, their churches would loose tax exemption and their leaders would be jailed.
Just so you know, the California Supreme Courts agreed to hear 5 cases against prop 8. This isn't going to last. Just like I ALWAYS say: society does not tolerate discrimination.
You really need to have the balls to identify yourself. I'm taking annonymous comments off. If you can't identify yourself, your opinion isn't worth hearing.
You're an idiot.
If it doesn't last, that's fine, but it won't be because of what the people want. and to say that the only reason that prop 8 passed was becasue mormons spent money on ads for it, and that religions were scared they would lose tax exemptions is hilarious! I mean come on, america is so uniformed about issues it is scary. I guess that gay community should have lobbied harder to vote no on prop 8.
You really need to get out and meet more people if all the people you have talked with say that their in favor of prop 8 because god said marriage should be between a man and a women. I know tonz of people that don't have a religious bone in their bodies that want to prohibit gay marriage because It's sick!
Gay people do not have a right to marry! How can we be taking away a right they don't have? They can choose to be gay. That's fine. As of right now, they don't have a right to marry. That may (and probably will) change unfortunatley.
Thanks for sticking with your word and letting people post annonymously. Maybe people feel more comfortable posting annonymously. Stop trying to FORCE your preferences on others!
Oh yeah, and what's with you and Janee with all the "you're and idiot" and "your stupid" comments? Nobody is calling you guys hatful things. What happened to all your "love others" and rainbow stuff?
A HUGE part of the reason prop 8 passed was because of ads and campaigns that claimed religions would loose tax exempt status and their religious leaders would be thrown in jail. It IS hilarious, because that IS what happened and that IS what people thought/think. This is pretty much an inarguable fact.
I get out plenty. All the people I personally know either are against gay marriage and religious, or pro-gay marriage and non-religious. I try to meet as many people as I can, and this is just what I come up with. I have not meet a single person in my life that is against gay marriage and also doesn't have any connection with religion whatsoever.
I beg to ask, why do you think gay marriage is sick if you're not religious? Everytime I back a person into a corner about it, I strip away the excuses about church and school and ask them why. They say it's morally wrong. I ask why it's morally wrong and they then say "because God said so". How can you say gay marriage is sick if it isn't back up by God? If you can, logically explain that to me.
When I was against gay marriage, I said "gay people DO have the right to marry" too. But I always said it with doubt. I always said it with the doubt that I was not right. That statement is just not right.
And I don't know what you mean by: "Thanks for sticking with your word and letting people post annonymously". In my opinion, if you have to hide your identity to express your belief, your opinion is not one I respect. I can at least respect you if you have the courage to take criticism for your beliefs. For this, I call you an idiot. And will continue to do so until you identify yourself. I have love and respect for those that don't have to hide to attack me.
Oh yeah, I can FORCE my preferences on others because this is MY blog.
your such a hypocrite.
Gay marriage is sick because two people of the same sex are having sex. If you need more of an explanation than that then your the idiot.
You know what, all the people I know that are not religious are against gay marriage. Don't generalize the whole population of the U.S. with the people that you know.
This is what I mean by sticking with your word, (This is off your blog), "Because I know a lot of my readers are either Mormon or voted for Prop 8. And I know you will be more inclined to answer my question if it's annonymous."
You don't think there were ads and campaigns to vote against prop 8?
I saw plenty. There were ads going both ways. The people voted and they don't want gay marriage. That is the only fact that is inarguable.
You show me where (any law, const, court ruling ect..) gay people have the right to marry.
You will be happy to know that this is my last post on your blog. I do have to say that you don't make any sense. your logic sucks and there are no facts to back-up your hostile, ridiculous claims.You get on here and say this is why this happened and if you think different than me, you are the idiot. You belittle everyone who has a different opinion than you. You do sound just like a spoiled little brat and in reading your blog, I have realized one thing, you madam, are the idiot.
You say that was your last post on here but I bet that wasn’t the last time you read my blog. So I know you’re reading this. And if you don’t post back, fine, I get the last word then.
So we should be allowed to vote and outlaw anything we think is sick? I think that an 18 year old marrying a 60 year old is sick. Why can’t we outlaw that? Voting against something because it's "sick" is not a logical justification to take away a person’s rights. I think it’s sick to smoke cigarettes. Why not outlaw that? I think it’s sick to be morbidly obese. Why not outlaw that? Your logic doesn’t go very far at all. You can't go around taking away rights because something is "sick".
I’m not generalizing the WHOLE population of the U.S. by just the people I know. I never said I did.
"Because I know a lot of my readers are either Mormon or voted for Prop 8. And I know you will be more inclined to answer my question if it's anonymous."
I can see clearly that I said “answer my question”. Not “attack me anonymously”. If you feel that you can attack me anonymously on my blog, you’re wrong. If you’re going to do that, I’ll take down anonymous commenting.
I never said I didn’t think there were ads and campaigns to vote against prop 8. I KNOW there were. My problem is that the ‘yes on 8’ ads were funded by Mormons. Mormons who were told by a “prophet” to vote and fund against gay marriage. I have a problem with that because that is clearly pushing their religious beliefs on everyone else. I have a problem with that because the ads contained LIES. I have a problem with THAT because as you said, there are so many Americans uniformed about issues, they are uniformed that religious freedom can’t be taken away from them by the FIRST AMENDMENT. And since they’re so uninformed, they see ads attacking their churches and they’ll be swayed into voting in a way that is totally illogical. It’s a stupid way of thinking that is persuading an even more stupid group of people. This is why it’s still arguable. You can’t fight a fight using lies. I’d like to see how these people would vote if they KNEW the truth about religious freedom.
”You show me where (any law, const, court ruling ect..) gay people have the right to marry.”
Um… gays have the right to marry in Massachusetts. And whatever happened to all men and women being created equal? In the Declaration of Independence, citizens have the inalienable right to “life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness” so long as it does not infringe on the rights of others. The phrase "pursuit of happiness" appeared in the 1967 Supreme Court case, Loving v. Virginia, 388 U.S. 1 in 1967. Chief Justice Warren wrote:
“The freedom to marry (marry, nowhere does it define marriage as a man and woman) has long been recognized as one of the vital personal rights essential to the orderly pursuit of happiness by free men.”
I know this was a case about interracial marriage, but I see no difference in that and gay marriage. But my point is exactly that, gay marriage does not infringe on the rights of others. My problem is that many people I have talked to, believe that it will. When infact it will not.
My problem with you is that you have yet to give a logical explaination as to why gay marriage should not be allowed, in a non-religious sense.
What you are saying is non-religious people vote against gay marriage because it’s sick, because it’s two people of the same sex, having sex. How does that not make you, and others who vote based off of that, an idiot? My blog is about voting according to the equal rights of others and logic. If you think I sound like a spoiled brat, then you are just a plain ignorant, closed minded, thick headed, idiodic, conservative, Mormon thinking bigot. I know it’s probably hard for you to think logically, but I know it’s just because you’ve been brainwashed. Sad.
Yes I am Mormon and am coming to grips with the fact that I may not sustain the current prophet because of this. It has been a painful struggle for me over the past few months. That is my issue to deal with and no one has the right to judge me for it.
This issue is not about religion or morality to me - it's about the civil rights and the law. I'm glad Amberly mentioned everyone being created equal because that's precisely the point I would have made, from a constitutional standpoint.
I just fundamentally disagree with the majority of Mormons that gays can choose their sexuality. I don't recall ever choosing to be straight, I was just born that way.
Furthermore, I think this issue also has special significance to me because I'm in an interracial marriage with interracial children, and 40 years ago that would have been considered "sick" too.
I didn't mean to personally attack Lynette but I was saying her comments were stupid because they are the rantings of a religious fanatic - no substance, no logic. "Because the prophet said so" just isn't a good enough reason for me. If that means I'm not a good enough Mormon, than I suppose I'm not but that is between me and God.
I too do not respect the opinions of an anonymous poster. Get a backbone if you truly stand for what you believe. I guess I would want to hide too - I wouldn't want to reveal that I was a bigot who cannot think for myself.
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